Background map update - discussion

[bengt.jensie]

I have the feeling that there are only two main key topics that have to be solved here.

The first thing is the BG Map. Atm there are two main used BG Maps. The one from PM and the one from Bengan. Both use the same Map Projection and both claim to be correct. Somehow someone should investigate which one is right. The main reason is that all mappers should use the same BG to align their map
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Then I must have misunderstood you totally! Have a nice day!

[Dr_J0nes]

@Voytek I feel really sorry that the ProMods devs getting critizised like you said. I really hope that you all doesn't get demotivated! You Guys and also many other Modders make the game to what it is and what they love. Never forget that you all (also other Modders) make people really happy with the work and hassle you put into this game in your freetime

@BenganJ maybe I wrote it a little bit unclear in the first post. My English is not the best ^^ So don't take every word I write 1:1. The word "claim" is in my head very similar the word "think". Wish you also a nice day. Same goes for you what I wrote to Voytek above. Don't let you guys stress by others. Take your time and do what you think is right if you want In the end modding should be fun and a passion.

[Plum™]

It amazes me that literally every other map modder is willing to cooperate with each other, but the PM team are the exception.

This is the biggest bs I have heard. We will do everything possible to help other map mods work on our map, we have helped many in the past and we will help many in the future. I am getting rather annoyed that people keep attacking us on this point. Just because you are unhappy we changed some stuff with the BGM, does not mean we are trying to break other peoples maps. We are working hard on getting the information modders need, to them so they can get their background map working again. We are sorry for any inconvenience caused but that doesn't mean it's right for you to start attacking us just because things aren't your way. As I said we will try to help modders get their background map working again. Period.

[bengt.jensie]

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@BenganJ maybe I wrote it a little bit unclear in the first post. My English is not the best ^^ So don't take every word I write 1:1. The word "claim" is in my head very similar the word "think". Wish you also a nice day. Same goes for you what I wrote to Voytek above. Don't let you guys stress by others. Take your time and do what you think is right if you want In the end modding should be fun and a passion.

I think that's exactly what both I and Vøytek is doing right now, talking reality and behaving like sensible persons!
I definitely see NO point in quarreling about these things! Thanks for having an opinion, we all have a right to that.

[Dr_J0nes]

That's awesome to hear Bengan! Wish you guys all the best!

[MandelSoft]

In another topic I asked for where to find the new projection parameters from SCS, but didn't get any answer, so then I asked Vøytek and have since got an answer from him!

Maybe it's because we honestly don't have any exact parameters, so let me explain the methods we used.

It turns out that the map projection differences between the background map in the editor and the background map in-game gets worse the further you get from Prague. The first idea was to draw the editor background map onto the in-game background map, but this has a few issues: not all areas actually have a background in the editor (especially the Middle-East), and we can't get more data from the original source of the background map, mapy.cz.Years ago, Mapy.cz changed its projection and now it doesn't completely match anymore with the old editor background, so there's no way to properly expand it. We did use Mapy.cz imagery to extrapolate the areas in the Middle East, but that's also a little bit of fitting and guesswork...

We took the map that SCS uses as a base, so we would be future-proofing ourselves for any SCS expansions in the future, wherever they may be, and converted it into a lossless vector format in InkScape so we can always modify it later. Then we loaded that background map in-game, took screenshots of areas where the borders and coasts mismatched with our road network, and pasted these screenshots in InkScape as an underlay to redraw the coasts and borders, so that all borders match again, the deformations wouldn't look too obvious and that no city was located in the sea anymore. It was a quite painstaking job, but we managed to make it work perfectly as we intended within our own mod.

We don't know which map projection SCS has used and with which parameters. But we do know that with this background map, we are prepared for wherever SCS is going to expand in the future. In the end, SCS sets the norms, not us. We try to keep up with them, adapt to the new norms, revise our old content where it's lacking, and by doing our housekeeping, we may break some mods without even knowing it. However, there are two types of mods that expand on our map, with a different kind of relationship:

• The ProMods expansion maps, such as Project Balkans, Junction Overhaul, Poland Rebuilding, etc. These are built upon the ProMods Map specifically and don't work without it. They build with our map sectors and our assets, but all these toys come with a price: when these people started their map mod, they've signed up for the risk that we may do something that breaks their content because of their dependency. In this case, not only SCS, but ProMods is also the norm setter.
• The standalone map mods, such as RusMap, the Great Steppe, RoEx, etc. These can work independently from ProMods, but do offer some compatiblity to combine the two. These maps can set their own norms beside SCS' norms. Most compatibility problems lie in the compatibility packs, where the map sectors overlap, and someone needs to upkeep these, most of the time it's the map author that wishes to be compatible with ProMods. It's often their responsibility to keep up the compatibility and they can drop it at any time as they please, and we have little to say in the matter or only get involved when asked to. We can fix some stuff if requested (e.g. like how Voytek solved prefab compatibility issues between RoEx and ProMods), but you have to come up with specifics first. Most of us devs don't use map mod combinations, and thus, we are often unaware of these issues.

As for co-operation: did you know that RusMap uses some of our assets we have given to them? And that most Russian map mods have taken over these assets as well? Just a little tidbit...

[bengt.jensie]

@MandelSoft

It was with pure pleasure I noted, that you finally answered. Thanks a lot for that, much appreciated.
Apart from what you say about the map projection, I'm pretty aware of all the rest. I have been a part
of this community now for many years, even been a member of this forum for quite some time. But
now I've got an answer to my initial question from 13th of April 2020, so back to business again. Have
a nice day all of you in the team and thanks again Mandelsoft!

[arayas]

I didnt see this topic.
Few things:
1. i dont know to be any problem between me and Mendelsoft. I am on this forum, no? Mendelsoft was one of peoples who gave me a honest opinion about my early map and he was right. That map was the thing i could do at the moment as a guy with no experience.
I have taken points from him and others and i will accept Mendelsoft advice anytime. I had some arguments with some of the Promods members more than 2 years ago, some polite, some not, but i dont hold grudges, i dont even remember who was involved at that time and
also Mendelsoft was the one closing the argument.
2. old Roex, yes ...deleted. I dont have a topic here to present my latest work (i know forum policy, i never asked even though my DLC add-ons in Romania are free) and that Ukraine overlaping is out of my hands because i need my road grid in that area. Here people have a choice.
3. We eliminated the FLD issue also by Promods doing, Voytek was kind enough to look into problem and solve it. Big thanks from me.

Now, on topic:
Bengan managed to reproduce the SCS projection on bigger scale. I dont take sides here.
When SCS implemented the new projection to expand their territory all maps were afected. You know what i am talking about. No city was in its initial place going to the left or right edge of the map.

As an exception, he did adjustments for Island and UK( a cheat if you want) but other than that we did intensive work to re-arange maps by SCS projection.
Behind the scene he did editor backgrounds for maps outside SCS one, making sure the same projection is made.
Southern Region, Great Steppe.... got their new form like that and other maps in work are in corect place also.

Now, "corect place"...who is telling Promods got it wrong or right or Bengan is wrong or right?
Well, he has no horse in this run, he did his work for community. His projection matches all Europe and far east, including Promods.
Promods projection includes only Promods.
The whole subject here is maybe about Middle East add-on. In my opinion is not in the right place. You will say it is. No common ground here.

So, the question is: as we did with FLD prefabs, why not using the same standard?
Promods, RusMap and so on, why we dont choose to use a 3th party standard projection maded globaly?
And that is Bengan's standard because he can reproduce that on global size.
I dont ask or see Promods team to do this job to provide such standard globaly. Me neither or others. I've deleted my Superzoom because he does a way better job then i could ever do in this matter. Promods have their work, we all have ours.

And judging by this standard, Promods is fine, Middle East need a readjustement. And that is easy to make if there is a will.

[Shiva]

MandelSoft, cheers for the information.
I did an another map check, Regarding Aberdeen, SCS vs ProMods.

Code: Select all

SCS Aberdeen ;[21/05/2020 12:26] (sec-0010-0014);-38611.2;93.4277;-54862.6;2.18865;-0.140916
PM Aberdeen, tiny bit north of SCS coords. ;[21/05/2020 12:33] (sec-0010-0014);-38616.3;97.6981;-54884.5;1.53249;-0.0992342

If anyone wonders, regarding map projections.
Aberdeen is in the same area in ProMods map, compared to SCS base map.
The rebuild makes the roads to be on a bit different places tho.

arayas, cheers for your input.

/edit:
Question:
Northernmost Norway, was it done before SCS had a Background map for that area?
I can not remember how it was.

[bengt.jensie]

@Shiva

I assume you know about how SCS is treating the UK area in the World View map e.g.?
Maps containing data in that specific region and using a scale of 1:15, which is the one
both SCS AND Promods uses, can tick a certain setting in the Map Editor settings. Then
that area will be rescaled on the fly by the game engine to 1:19 in the display of the data
in World View. Promods hasn't got that tick in the settings and therefor it is being displayed
in the scale 1:15 in World View, hence the difference in BG there! This is due, I think to how
Iceland once was created, so what Promods team should do about that is, add that tick, then
move/rescale if needed Iceland and possibly the other islands above Scotland. In my BGs,
I have solved that problem doing exactly as I described it, by adding such a settings file in
my BG mods, the file is called europe.mbd! That way I had a UNIVERSAL BG mod for all
combo maps. I really hope that the mess with the UK area could be solved by the Promods
team.