SCS forum troubles

[XZV]

Who honestly cares about the dumb people in that forum, If they want to ditch promods go ahead, Let them explore their "amazing" default map

[Volleybal4life]

Well, it actually is an amazing default map. It's the default map which makes ProMods possible. Remember that

[adgjl]

I'm not active on the SCS forums so I wasn't aware of this issue past wondering what those signature images meant that some users brought over to here. Therefore I'm not going to comment on the tool itself and its implications. But from reading some of the locked threads it is clear that, as KubaJAM and others said, this issue escalated beyond anything it should have done, with neither side making a good effort at understanding what the other was saying and in some cases being downright rude. That's why I'm happy to see the blog post removed and the discussion becoming more mature.

Now for what I really want to say:

Who honestly cares about the dumb people in that forum, If they want to ditch promods go ahead, Let them explore their "amazing" default map

XZV and others, please drop this arrogant tone. I think it's ridiculous to call this an 'elitist community' or whatever but that sort of fanboyish attitude is not helping one bit.
I'm not a moderator- I can't tell you not to write like that. I am merely requesting that you don't because I'm afraid it will disrupt the discussion and fuel a derogatory image of these forums.

[Cadde]

I will take my opportunity here to speak freely from my own interpretation and thoughts on your last post Scul.
Freedom of speech and all that...
Yes, this is exactly what i think personally as of current! It doesn't reflect on my position and potential actions as a moderator on the SCS forums.

I will break down your post into several parts so i can address each of them separately.

... it is not necessarily about the tool it is the way that the SCS forum staff are dealing with the situation. ...

If it isn't about the tool then what exactly is the problem? Also, you contradict yourself later in your post which leads me to believe you are just trying to FORCE a change on the SCS forums because you personally don't agree with it.

It's clear to me that you have a following from the separate Promods community where you can call support to your side whenever you disagree with something on the SCS Forums. In the first case i know of, i was the target for your call to arms. In the second case i know of, it's against Sniper and his tool.

That happens to be a violation of the summary for section 1 in the forum rules.

Treat all users equally, do not gang up on a particular user or his opinions.

It would be different if each user spoke his mind from his or her standpoint but instead it was pretty much a copy paste mentality where the "inspiration" for the "gang assault" (as i assume) came from these forums in a section not visible to the public.

But it was resolved in a reasonable manner so it's all history now.

Rather than addressing conflict, they have fuelled the conflict by being highly intolerant towards people with different opinions on the matter.
This does not only apply to me, it also applies to people like Bora.

You forget that moderators are allowed to state their opinions on the forums. Treating them differently because they are moderators is against the forum rules.
Attack the arguments, not the person. This includes treating a moderator differently just because he's a moderator. We are allowed to discuss freely just as much as SCS Software are allowed to discuss freely. A user who cannot accept this fact will be warned and potentially given a vacation.
The forums are not the same as the official blog and site. The forums are... forums. Where users share thoughts, experiences, help, support and opinions alike.

Since i haven't been part of the whole discussion on D.A.R.T / SCS Unlocker, care to point out where forum moderators have been intolerant? And while you are at it, please provide proof that the moderators haven't been equally intolerant to users on the opposing side?
Don't forget, the moderators should abide by the same rules as everyone else and while i agree that there have been cases where even moderators have responded badly, those cases have always been handled by another moderator telling the first one to chill and edit his posts or "we will have a problem".
Nobody is completely flawless and sometimes people respond in anger and the only thing moderators act on is rule violations which usually occur when people are angry.

Your choice of words, "intolerant" implies (to me at least) that moderators are using their powers to silence one side while letting the other speak freely. So either explain your choice of words if that is incorrect or provide PROOF.
So far i have yet to see any hard evidence for any of your claims.

SCS does not condone piracy.

Currently, they do, because the forum policy is set up for it.

Set up for it? Have you read the rules?

[2.2] Distributing/linking to illicit copyright protected material is strictly forbidden.
[2.3] Discussions on how to break or circumvent copy protection is strictly forbidden.

We act on links to illicit copyrighted material as soon as we are alerted or aware of said links. If a user would link to an illicit copy of Promods we would remove that link immediately and issue a firm warning to the user with a quick ban to follow if the offence is repeated.
That of course doesn't just apply to Promods but any mod where we can confirm the link to be illicit. Which heavily relies on a user bringing it to our attention.

And we have done so on numerous occasions already i might add. In case you are wondering. So every time you say "SCS Staff / SCS forum moderators support piracy" you tell a lie. A lie that technically speaking could put you in deep trouble.

On the second rule (2.3), allow me to explain why we don't act on users asking how to unlock a mod.
Let's start with the definition of copy protection...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_protection

Copy protection, also known as content protection, copy prevention and copy restriction, is any effort designed to prevent the reproduction of software, films, music, and other media, usually for copyright reasons.

What is a mod?
Well, it's not software.
It's not a film/movie.
It's not music.

What about other media? Do look it up!
It's not a tape, CD/DVD or other storage medium.
It's not a paper or a book.

So is a mod inherently copyrighted? No...
The components of the mod are copyrighted. That is, your textures, models, sounds, images and animations etc are copyrighted.

Can a mod archive therefore be copy protected?
No, because that's not what copy protection is. Anyone can copy the Promods archives and use them without a license to do so. There's no encryption to bypass (only obfuscation, which only works in archivers that bother checking, which the game doesn't) and there's no laws being broken when opening the archive.
That is, there is no law against opening an archive, even by brute force. There is no law against gaining access to the contents of locale.scs and hence there is no law against doing so on any other archive.

So please tell me how discussing opening a "locked" archive is discussing copyright protection and circumvention of copyrights?

And it's not piracy if a user opens your archives, changes something and never redistributes it. That's allowed, you are allowed to make changes to any copyrighted material for private use. You just can't share it.
And i don't see a "REDISTRIBUTE" button in D.A.R.T for your information.

The only time a law is breached is when someone redistributes copyrighted material without the copyright holder's consent.
And the "only" (reserving myself for any edge cases) time we would act upon rule 2.3 is if people discuss how to play the game without having a legal copy of the game. Which again we have dealt with on numerous occasions when it's evident the user has a pirated copy of the game and then asks for help when the games copy protection kicks in.

Don't worry I have addressed the the situation with the management of SCS because I still have very close ties with them and am hoping that we can resolve this conflict amicably.

I wish you the best of luck, all i can say though is you should be ready to adjust your stance even if they don't. You were dropped for a reason you know... And it wasn't because you think looking and changing something in your archives for private use is piracy.

#1 mod theft = piracy

FALSE!
Copyright infringement isn't theft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright ... 22Theft.22

Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as theft. In copyright law, infringement does not refer to theft of physical objects that take away the owner's possession, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.

#2 allowing tools that aid this behaviour on the official forums equals supporting that cause

So allowing tools that lock mods on our forums means we support the locking of mods? ETS 2 Studio for instance?
Wow, SCS Software has some serious double standards then... /sarcasm

What about those who develop disassemblers? Do they support illicit reverse engineering of copyrighted and patented software too?
Hex editor developers support the reverse engineering of file formats and as such support piracy...
The maintainers of MCP (Mod Coders Pack) for Minecraft supports piracy because with it you could technically reprogram Minecraft to ignore the lack of credentials and play online anyways? Despite the many other primary uses for the deobfuscation of the Minecraft sources and the fact that FML (Forge Mod Loader) did away with having to redistribute parts of the core game whenever you make a mod... Which actually was copyright infringement for real, that EVERY modder HAD to do back when.

Or rather closer to home, sending you a PM detailing how you could lock Promods in a manner that isn't as easily reversed means i also support mod locking? Despite my official stance on the matter?

#3 having someone of the official SCS moderating team supporting the tool, and encouraging its use is extremely flawed

How so considering this entry in the SCS forum rules?

[1.5] Remember that SCS Software, the admins and the moderators are all users of these forums. Treat them all with the same respect as any other user.

That is, no matter what color the user has he is entitled to the same respect as any other user and entitled to his own opinions. We use green text when we speak in the capacity of our moderator rank. In all other cases we are speaking as regular users and that goes for all users, even Michal.

Besides, even IF we weren't allowed to speak our own minds as developers, moderators, beta testers or otherwise it makes zero difference. Supporting a tool does NOT automatically mean we support everything the tool is used for.
For instance, i am an avid fan of firearms. That doesn't mean i support school shootings!

#4 having some of the official SCS moderating team crack down on anybody that opposes them is extremely childish and censorship in its purest form

If you think someone has been wrongfully censored i urge you to provide PROOF.
As for "cracking down" on someone... See forum rule 1.5. It doesn't matter what color you wear, you are entitled to your opinions and even disagreeing wholeheartedly as long as it's done within the confines of the forum rules.

All that I and other opponents of the tool have been asking for from day 1 is that all file modification tools should be treated equally. This means no locking tools, no unlocking tools.

It's fine to ask, it's not fine to break the rules when you don't get the answer you were looking for.
Or let's put it another way...

You asking =/= Instant action in your favor.
You repeatedly asking =/= Automatically changed action from the first time.
You going to a higher instance and asking there =/= They agreeing with you
You throwing a temper tantrum and defaming said higher instance as well as the lower instance(s) =/= ... Well, it doesn't do you any favors now does it?

Or do you expect everyone to think like you do in this instance?
I am pretty sure there are users who are just as fed up with piracy as you are but who are realistic enough to know the difference between a pirate and a regular user.

These tools have no place on the official game developers' forums.

And why is that? How are the SCS Forums different from any other gaming forum?
See me examples from Minecraft above. MCP (originally) was in the darker areas of the gray zone in regards to copyright infringement. As of late it's still deep in the gray zone but they at least strive to not be as dark.
And Mojang still hasn't acted against a single modder. They might not always like what is being done but in the end, if such a tool (that practically turns the game into open and readable SOURCE CODE) is allowed to exist then i see absolutely no reason as to why a tool that repairs or obfuscates ZIP headers would be any different.

And again, it's simply not up to you. Learn to accept the facts as they are. We will not remove D.A.R.T and we will not remove ETS 2 Studio or any other tool that benefits the community in either direction.

... and certainly not encouraged by SCS moderators.

Rule 1.5...

If a mod is locked the mod author has a good reason to do so, and any user should respect that.

Respecting it is one thing, opening a locked archive isn't disrespectful. Redistributing it however is.
Also, you forgot to add "probably" before "has a good reason". At least have the decency to be objective... It's one of those things i have noticed reading your texts. You dictate a lot.

You can always contact a mod author and ask them how they achieved certain things or if you can take some of their files for your own use.

Yes you can. Only problem is that sometimes you might not have that luxury available to you. Nobody is saying "open the archive and copy the model and release your own".
What we are saying is "if you don't like the way it works, change it and keep the changes private" and "if you can't find out how it's done you should look at the source material".

And now for a question... Do you agree with me unlocking a locked archive to make a skinning template from it so another user could skin the truck?
Answer me that because the original author could not be found and as such an otherwise decent mod became horribad because it was impossible to use it properly.

What I want is an ACTIVE encouragement from within the heart of the community to respect modders' work. NOT THE OPPOSITE!

Show me examples of users who doesn't respect modders works? Why encourage something that is already perfectly obvious within the community?
And by encourage i assume you mean "ban tools that does things i don't like"... In that case, see the "You asking =/= It being done" part above.

A mature community, similar to how things are dealt with in other big sim communities such as Train/Flight sim, SimCity 4, etc.

I don't see an immature community. I do see immature users demanding things and not getting them, to which they respond with more immaturity. Every community has those users. Users who think they are better than everyone else and who would happily cause a huge divide in the community to further his own narrow minded agenda.

SCS software have a hugely important role to play here, and the moderators that manage their community should represent that positive spirit.

I totally agree with you, this is why we don't prevent users from sharing their tools on our forums as long as they are within the forum rules and are legal on the international scale.

The last month or so I've seen some of the moderators do nothing but break down that spirit

That may be true, i don't know since i didn't participate. That doesn't mean anything though. You are responsible for your own actions and you are not without fault either. I have yet to see you admit fault in this "breaking down the spirit of the community".

stick to their guns and insult or silence anybody that opposes them, this is 100% counter-effective, and hugely immature.

Silence how? If someone manages to say something so absolutely true that the opposing party stops and thinks about his own standpoints i'd call that a well formulated argument.

Or are you saying some moderators lock threads and ban users because they have differing opinions?
If you are, have you read the rules? In each and every case when we lock a thread or ban a user we do so because the rules have been broken.

And IF that happens to be at a time that doesn't fit your expectations then... Looking through the reported posts in our forum shows that the LAST time you reported a post was in Oct, 2014. More than a year ago.
We are moderators, not automated forum spiders. We deal with violations when we spot them. It's happened to myself many times that i've missed rule violations because i have been skimming a thread rather than reading it with full attention to details.
I only read (because i am human and an USER, not being paid to moderate) the things that interest me in detail.

Believe it or not but we don't have TIME to read every post and scrutinize it for rule violations. Even then, it's only natural that we read the posts that are of interest to us first and foremost. If a post agrees with my stance on something i don't need to read it in full. Which again leads to me missing certain violations in the past when i was active.

This has lead me to losing my temper and my respect as the behaviour is toxic, and consistent.

So what you are saying is you should be forgiven for your intentional rule violations and ignoring moderator action because you lost your temper?
You were given more warnings than most, you were even stripped of your orange colors LONG before you were banned. TAKE THE HINT?

ScuL was banned from the forums for multiple forum rule breaches, such as an offensive avatar which was untrue and directed insults towards SCS, as well as insulting the moderating team.

This is the biggest nonsense you have written so far.

FALSE!
It's exactly the reason we used when we finally decided to ban you and you would have been able to read that, had you still had access.
If you think defamation isn't a valid reason for banning i suggest you appeal to a court to have the decision lifted.
Of course you will have to pay for legal expenses...

#1 I have never broken a single forum rule until I got banned

FALSE!
You broke several rules and were told each and every time. Besides, you have broken rules before the "incident" with the unlocking tool. However i can't reference those cases because...

1) It would mean i would share private information.
2) I am not a library, i would actually have to waste time looking it up.

#2 I have never insulted SCS

FALSE!
Stating SCS Software supports piracy IS an insult since it's also false. Or do you have undeniable proof that would hold up in a court case for defamation?
Why don't you save yourself the trouble and provide evidence now to support your claims? I mean REAL evidence, not "because i say so" evidence.

#3 I have never used foul language or placed any derogatory remarks towards SCS or the moderators

FALSE!
But i can't go into specifics because it's private information. At least YOU know what you have done.

#4 My avatar merely stated "THESE FORUMS SUPPORT PIRACY". Which still holds truth, it's not an offence nor an insult.

... FALSE!
... See above!

As long as the DART topic is open and visible for discussion, the forums still support piracy.

Because YOU say so, right? Or do you have something new to bring to the table on this tiring discussion on the legality of said tool?
Again, just because hammers are used to murder people doesn't mean hammer manufacturers support murder. Even if they don't replace the hammer head with a feather to prevent them from being used as murder weapons.

You would you agree with my stating "you support piracy because you are using Windows and we all know Windows is the most commonly used platform for piracy"?
Have you even considered scrutinizing your own arguments?

Here is the evidence, today this user asked how he could crack the EEA2 map:

Where does he use the term "crack"?
Let me quote the post...

I can not open.
EAA 2.9

Wow, you must have amazing skills in deduction if you can deduce that the user wanted to "crack" the map.
How do you even know the user's intents for opening the archive? I don't know much about the map in question but my immediate assumption is that the archive contains something the user doesn't want or want to change.

They say that if you tell yourself that you are sick for long enough you start believing it and then you get sick because the mind is a powerful beast.
Here, let me aid you with the followup to that question.

Seems there are damaged files put at the start of the archive. You have to extract whole SCS file and recompress it (select "Extract archive" as a repair method and also activate "Ignore processing errors").
Four *.mat files in automaf folder will be ignored, but it seems they are not referenced anywhere in the mod and are there only for obfuscation - but I can not guarantee that. So if there will be any error regarding materials/textures, it might originate in those files. Simply try it and test it in the game, you will see if it is ok.

As you can tell, still no mentions of "crack" in there. Just an explanation on why the archive couldn't be repaired using the default settings and details on how to proceed.

Let me remind you, opening an archive is NOT illegal or copyright infringement.

I sympathise for my modding colleagues who made this map, clearly this user disrespects their choice to protect their files.
And surprise surprise, moments later support is given how to crack this map.

I respect their work but not the manner in which they release it. While it's their choice to lock the file there's nothing wrong with me unlocking those files.
The sooner you accept that fact, the sooner you will realize just how absurd your arguments are.

Even so, it doesn't give you the right to defame SCS Software, it's forum moderators or it's users.
Nor does it mean you get to dictate how the forum is run. The forum is run as a democracy amongst the moderators. We all come to an agreement on how to deal with certain controversial threads and posts. You should know this because you have seen how we operate.

On the contrary:

[1.2] Respect each other even when you have differing opinions. Insulting and personal attacks are strictly forbidden.
[1.5] Remember that SCS Software, the admins and the moderators are all users of these forums. Treat them all with the same respect as any other user.

Rule 1.2 was broken by SCS moderators. They did not respect my opinion.

We don't have to respect your opinion. We just have to behave respectful to you.
Rule 1.2 was broken by you on several occasions.

Rule 1.5 does not apply, I have always treated everybody equally regardless of their rank.

When are you going to stop telling lies?

As for your blog post, it breaks the law on defamation in the Netherlands. Why the Netherlands? Because this site is registered there. You cannot post unsubstantiated shit about a company and expect to get away with it. I don't know what SCS are going to do about it if anything but they genuinely are entitled to sue you.

You have no idea what you are talking about, this doesn't even come close to defamation.
It's articulating facts and highlighting poor policy. Defamation equals coming up with fabrications or lies to put a person or company in a bad light, there are no fabrications or lies in anything I've said.

If what you have said aren't fabrications then you should provide evidence supporting your claims. So far you have provided personal opinions where you somehow add 1 and 2 together and come up with 666.

Or let's put it this way, if all that you have done has been recorded (a lot of it already has) and put up in court you would lose and face a fine and possibly even prison time in accordance with Netherlands defamation laws.
Are you willing to risk that over your inability to take NO for an answer?

ScuL and face the facts that what you did is wrong and that you have behaved inappropriately.

The only ones I have seen behaving inappropriately were the SCS moderators who have:
* undertaken steps to strip me of my privileges (which I am entitled to; having been a legal contractor for SCS software)

We didn't have to do anything to warrant stripping you of your privileges. You managed that on your own.
One or more of us might have contacted SCS directly to put your actions to light as a self defensive measure as you opted to threaten the moderators of the forum.
You know what you said, you know what you tried to pull and there's evidence of that which will come to light if needed. (such as a court case)
Do you have any evidence to support your claim?

* undertaken steps to silence the discussion by locking threads, removing posts, editing posts and other forms of censorship

Undertaken steps to keep the thread and it's posters in line with the forum rules you mean?
As for editing posts, we edit out foul language and other such rule violations only. If you can prove otherwise then feel free to do so.

So what other forms of censorship are there? Us banning you because you broke the rules?
Yeah, we "censored" you because you REFUSED to heed our warnings as your profile were in violation of the forum rules.

* unlawfully banned my account without any valid reason

Our current convention is that we only ban users in the most extreme cases of repeated and/or vile rule violations. You fit both those criteria.
We were on morally solid ground for banning your profile and we are on morally solid ground for keeping it that way as it currently stands.
Maybe you should start with practicing what you preach as a first step if you ever want to regain the "privileges" we have "taken" from you.

I think I have every right to be extremely upset by this malicious treatment.

You have all the right in the world to be upset. There is no rules or laws against being upset.
What you don't have is the right to act as you please, say what you please and, as a user, break both our forum rules and the law.

I've made strong recommendations to SCS management to revise some of the moderator staff.

As is your right. My only concerns are what actions you will take if your crusade doesn't play out as you want it to.
Pleading to SCS's management after having defamed them and threatened their assigned forum moderators might not be as fruitful as you think.

Please note that, as Cadde mentioned, it would be wrong to point the finger at all of the moderators, but there are certainly some very twisted individuals suffering from some kind of power trip or personal vendetta.

Well thank you!
As for twisted individuals, from what i have seen so far. No moderator has publically put you to shame. Please show me otherwise and i will personally deal with it.
As well as any other infractions you can point out. Unlike what you may think of me, i am not afraid to deal with infractions. Not even if they come from SCS developers or Michal himself.

I would rather be stripped of my position as a moderator than intentionally overlook a rule violation just because it's made by a specific user.
I can even prove it if it comes to that... Rest assured, i have dealt with violations from SCS developers in the past and will continue to do so even if told not to.
My "job" as a moderator is to be unbiased in my moderation actions.

So again, point it out to me and i will investigate and act upon it when i return.

EDIT: Oh and as far as power trips and personal vendettas... Do you ever meditate? If so, is your mind completely blank or do you get to see inside yourself?
Or do you ever look inside yourself from time to time anyways?

Power trips - I recall someone who was once orange and in favor with SCS Software who threatened to "complain directly to Pavel" over something. As if that somehow changed the facts.

EDIT EDIT: Oh yeah and the "we have 20,000 facebook users" comment you made somewhere. Definitely not a power trip at all...
We have NEVER used our position as moderators as an argument for how much more important we are than someone else.
In fact, we DEMAND that users treat us as regular users until we post in green. You will never see me post in green to "win" an argument.

Personal vendetta - So what you are doing is just you defending yourself, right? It's not at all a drive to "revise some of the moderator staff" because they didn't agree with you and did their job (albeit a bit too late) as moderators?

I hope that the above provides you a better insight and I have faith in Pavel and Michal that they can work out some form of solution that satisfies everybody.

Out of interest, what actions would be taken if you were in Pavel or Michals shoes to satisfy everybody?

If it involves any of the following:

• You being unbanned from the forums without a formal and official apology where you admit to all your own faults in this situation (not saying others aren't at fault) and refraining from future attempts at dictating how the forum and the community should be run.
• Certain moderators being stripped of their position unfairly. (Having seen what you have posted to them in PM, if any of those affected were dropped then THAT would be atrocious and a deal breaker on all fronts)
• Certain tools being removed from the forums.
• Certain users being "silenced" on the forums.
• SCS giving you any special treatments of any form or function.

Then rest assured that not everyone will be satisfied. In fact, quite the opposite.
You have to realize that you are not in a position to make any demands at all currently.

In fact, it's my strong belief that not even Nico can afford to have you on the team nor even posting on these here forums. (Yes, the forum administrator(s) can be held responsible for the contents of the forum and a cease and desist letter would legally force him to revoke the "freedom of speech" status here.
Should such legal action be taken (again, let me remind you as i said in the blog entry you retracted that i will not do so myself. I am merely informing you of your predicament here for your own sake. And of course in the hopes that you will finally see reason) and the cease and desist letter be ignored then the forum administrator(s) and to some extent it's staff would also be held responsible in court.

As i've already pointed out, a defamation case can lead to fines and imprisonment for anywhere between 3 months and 2 years.

[MandelSoft]

Although I disagree on some points with Cadde, I must say that both sides have shown their worst in this whole discussion. It's not helping anyone here and I don't want to let it escalate further. Please take further discussion in private.


I was almost at the point to lock this thread, but the rest of my team told me off. Now that I see what has happened, convinced me that I should've followed my feelings. I call everyone to calm down, let it sink in over a few nights. If anyone of the SCS staff wants to negotiate about this issue, please contact me there on the SCS forums, and let's see if we can find a more diplomatic and permanent compromise for this issue. Because if things continue like this, it will only end in tears...

In the mean time, this topic is closed. This also includes the site staff, who can post on locked threads. This includes you too, ScuL!

-- TOPIC LOCKED --