SCS forum troubles

[joealker]

Thank you both for being at least a little mature about this. It's good to see some of you still have your heads screwed on.

[Bora]

Well

A few weeks ago I actually thought we were getting closer to an agreement, the only moderator on the SCS Forum who seemed to care just a little bit for our concern was you joealker. Apparently your suggestion was more than the rest of the moderator team was willing to put into solving the problem Cudo's to you for trying, it's much appreciated..!!

As for Sniper's poll I only got one thing to say, probably the biggest insult of them all..!! Setting up a poll asking people wether the tool should be removed or not while leaving it up was probably the most disrespectfull thing which happened, would have been common curtesy to remove it while the poll was running..!! The poll was nothing but adding fuel to an already explosive fire!

During the overheated discussion I've been told several times "If you don't want people to alter your mod keep it private", it made me post this in another topic which at some point turned into the 2nd topic about the tool

In general I can only talk about my reasons to lock part of the trailerpack, personally I don't give a fu** about what people do to my work (as in what I created, edited etc.), hence why the pack was made as 2 files. Patch 1 which contains all models, mat files, basic textures, def files, hookup files for the flares etc. Go ahead, do whatever you feel like..!! Some of the people who made the skins are a little more concerned about their work. I worked out a solution I thought would actually benefit the community in general. We could all enjoy the trailers, at least those who like them (if you don't I can't do much about it, after all wether a mod is nice or not is a matter of personal preference).
I could have just kept it private but to me the major part of an active community is about sharing, as I once was told "Sharing is caring". I worked hard to come up with a solution so I could get some nice and crispy skins on the trailers. I never been a fan of locked mods but to me locking the skins was the best of two evils, it was either a partly locked mod or no public mod so I locked it, for the benefit of the community!
I thought I did the right thing and for that I'm truly sorry, I hope that everyone at some point will be able to forgive me.

What bothers me the most is the fact that the majority of people speaking all the good words about the tool haven't shared a damn thing with the community, why is that? I got what I consider to be a pretty good idea but I think it's best to avoid discussing the subject!

From a community point of view this is a "No Winners" battle, you either lost or you didin't, but no one won that's for sure.

Personally I've already made up my mind, last night I filed my 2nd request to have my account deleted. It's been 23 days since I filed the first one but apparently the Admin's over there is really busy. Hopefully they'll fullfill my request in not too long because I don't want to be part of that place anymore..!!

[KubaJAM]

Having sat back and watched these discussions going on for the last month, I feel it is worth me chipping into this discussion just once, and I hope what I am going to say will have an impact on at least some of you readers.

To start with, I am not personally happy with the release of this tool. Personally, I believe that, regardless of whether you believe it to be wrong or not, if somebody locks a mod, people should respect the author's wishes and allow the mod to remain locked.

However, regardless of my opinion, I feel this discussion (starting on the SCS forum) has escalated far beyond where it has been necessary to escalate. We, as a team, may wish to keep our mod locked, for our own purposes, but this should not affect our values as humans. Under no circumstance should personal jibes be allowed, from us, SCS forum moderators, or whoever else wants to join the discussion. Slowly the conversation escalated from a discussion about a tool to a full blown free-for-all 'say whatever you like' attitude from both sides. I feel our participation in this discussion may have at least temporarily damaged the reputation of our whole community, and the participation of some SCS forum moderators in the discussion questioned their ability to hold down their own job.

By speaking about this for any more time, we risk dividing opinion even more between the two sides, and ruining the possibility for communication across the forum for future use. Considering how long this tool has been around, I am quite frankly sick and tired of hearing about the views of either side on the matter, as the tool itself seems to have become a purely trivial factor in the context of the discussion. As far as I am concerned, it would be better to forget about the issue and move on, rather than persistently driving at a matter which is difficult to resolve. At the end of the day, thousands of people love what we are doing, and will continue to use and appreciate our work no matter what. If a few lowlife individuals feel the need to unlock and edit the mod without our permission, you know what, let them. We will know who they are and make it clear to our community, if it isn't clear enough already, where the only official download of the mod can be found.

In the past few weeks I have seen no end to immaturity shown from both sides of the argument, and I for one would love to see this issue put to bed in its entirety. Furthermore, we're actually gaining publicity for this tool by keeping on about it, and thereby shooting ourselves in the foot.

Any inappropriate replies to this topic from this point on will be moderated carefully, I don't mind who writes them.

[AndreasGRS3]

In my opinion this topic shouldn't have been created, we are talking for the SCS forum subjects for over 1 month{more than enough time,this has started from the October if i remember correctly).SCS made the game modable so why this disruption,If we want to support the promods team for their work we have this forum and not SCS's with this forum i am quite satisfying and honestly i have never created an account for the SCS forum(That's my opinion, no offence and i am not criticizing anyone.)

Regards,
AndreasGRS3

[Wolfpig]

I get ScuL's frustration but now this very innocent topic is getting all the attention it doesn't need.

One reason why this "innocent Topic" gets this much attention right now may be caused by this thread which was created.......

[Starfruit 017]

Now look at that... Their facebook alert about it was deleted

[Cadde]

Before i start, let me state that i never visited either forum when the whole discussion started and as such I don't have a first hand experience of it.
Also let me point out that as a moderator of the SCS Forums it saddens me how i indirectly become a target for opinions i've never had and actions i've never taken.

Some of you here already know my stance on the "locking" of mods. I find it damaging to the community and potentially dangerous to the end user as the game could theoretically be exploited through some nefarious mod (ZIP) archives that any user wouldn't expect.

That being said, i wouldn't prevent a tool's existence as long as it follows the forum rules and is legal in the international spectrum.
A tool that undoes modifications to a proprietary file format (which ZIP is) to repair the archive is not in the slightest illegal the same way soap isn't illegal to use when you wash your car.

Likewise, a tool that obfuscates a file format (I.E, a locking tool like ETS 2 Studio which i HELPED develop) isn't illegal or against the forum rules. It surprises me that no one has brought up a discussion about how SCS Software promotes locked mods since ETS 2 Studio has had that functionality for much longer than the "new" reversal tool.

Besides, even though my personal stance on "locking" mods I've offered Scul an alternative way to lock mods and i've detailed that in a PM to him on the SCS Forums, which he cannot access anymore. This of course was more than a few months back when i was last active on the SCS Forums.
That is, i offered assistance to make a better lock with the promise to never share that locking method with anyone else.
My point here is, don't automatically assume ALL moderators and staff are being gestapo about their own personal opinions on the matter and locking threads/banning users just because it doesn't fit their personal agendas.

I weigh in the benefits of the community on the whole and as such i am against locking of mods but i also share my ideas and knowledge on how to make even better locks.

Oh and before you go accusing me of "you haven't done anything for the community" maybe you should check my history on the SCS forums.
While i haven't released a bunch of great mods that everyone flock to, i'd like to think i've done more for the community as a whole than most.
Of course you are entitled to disagree and measure a person's worth based on their released mods alone but if you were to ask me... It's way more complicated than that.
You have those that release mods and you have those that support others in the release of mods through technical assistance, ideas and tools.

Which brings me back to the intended use of an unlocking tool. It isn't made to support piracy, the intended user isn't the lowlife that takes assets and resources from one mod and include them in their own. The intended user is the user that wants to change something they currently cannot for personal use.
As well as those users who want to observe and learn from what others have done so they can better themselves in their modding progress.

Yes, you can argue that Promods allows users to edit the DEF package. But that isn't enough in all cases.
Yes, you can argue that there's an academy where new modders can get help with their mods. But how will you know what question to ask if you don't yet know the question?

People learn more from looking at history than they ever will asking questions they don't know how to formulate.
If all i had was the ability to ask questions i would never have been able to get to where i am today. Sometimes you have to venture into the unknown and when the unknown is surrounded by huge walls you either climb those walls or you forget about it.

My own belief is that more potential new modders (any game) have turned around at those walls than there are who have stopped and asked for direction or who have opted to climb those walls.
Some of the best mods for games i've seen has come to games that doesn't even support modding, like Minecraft.
It's because of people willing to climb walls and dig into the unknown that things ever get to where they should.
And i don't see that many complaints from the Minecraft community for all the tools made to break into the obfuscated sources of Minecraft... Only those who think (wrongfully so i might add) they are the best since the invention of the wheel would think so.

[cdawg9999]

Stealings a persons work needs to stop and a persons work should and needs to be respected. SCS moderators have been complete children about this after reading the thread today. I will never register on their forum because they will violate my rights and freedoms by limiting my freedom of speech

[ScuL]

MandelSoft made some very valid points earlier which I fully support, it is not necessarily about the tool it is the way that the SCS forum staff are dealing with the situation. Rather than addressing conflict, they have fuelled the conflict by being highly intolerant towards people with different opinions on the matter.
This does not only apply to me, it also applies to people like Bora.

SCS does not condone piracy.

Currently, they do, because the forum policy is set up for it. And as the game's main developers I find this highly questionable.
Don't worry I have addressed the the situation with the management of SCS because I still have very close ties with them and am hoping that we can resolve this conflict amicably.

I will explain my rationale once again:
#1 mod theft = piracy
#2 allowing tools that aid this behaviour on the official forums equals supporting that cause
#3 having someone of the official SCS moderating team supporting the tool, and encouraging its use is extremely flawed
#4 having some of the official SCS moderating team crack down on anybody that opposes them is extremely childish and censorship in its purest form

All that I and other opponents of the tool have been asking for from day 1 is that all file modification tools should be treated equally. This means no locking tools, no unlocking tools. These tools have no place on the official game developers' forums. I wouldn't be surprised if they appear on some Russian piracy site, but they should be kept away from the mainstream community, and certainly not encouraged by SCS moderators. If a mod is locked the mod author has a good reason to do so, and any user should respect that. You can always contact a mod author and ask them how they achieved certain things or if you can take some of their files for your own use.

What I want is an ACTIVE encouragement from within the heart of the community to respect modders' work. NOT THE OPPOSITE!
A mature community, similar to how things are dealt with in other big sim communities such as Train/Flight sim, SimCity 4, etc.
SCS software have a hugely important role to play here, and the moderators that manage their community should represent that positive spirit.
The last month or so I've seen some of the moderators do nothing but break down that spirit, stick to their guns and insult or silence anybody that opposes them, this is 100% counter-effective, and hugely immature. This has lead me to losing my temper and my respect as the behaviour is toxic, and consistent.

.

ScuL was banned from the forums for multiple forum rule breaches, such as an offensive avatar which was untrue and directed insults towards SCS, as well as insulting the moderating team.

This is the biggest nonsense you have written so far.
#1 I have never broken a single forum rule until I got banned
#2 I have never insulted SCS
#3 I have never used foul language or placed any derogatory remarks towards SCS or the moderators
#4 My avatar merely stated "THESE FORUMS SUPPORT PIRACY". Which still holds truth, it's not an offence nor an insult.

As long as the DART topic is open and visible for discussion, the forums still support piracy.

Here is the evidence, today this user asked how he could crack the EEA2 map:


I sympathise for my modding colleagues who made this map, clearly this user disrespects their choice to protect their files.
And surprise surprise, moments later support is given how to crack this map.

It's absolute unfathomable that this type of behaviour is not only allowed but ENCOURAGED on the official game developer's forums.


On the contrary:

[1.2] Respect each other even when you have differing opinions. Insulting and personal attacks are strictly forbidden.
[1.5] Remember that SCS Software, the admins and the moderators are all users of these forums. Treat them all with the same respect as any other user.

Rule 1.2 was broken by SCS moderators. They did not respect my opinion.
Rule 1.5 does not apply, I have always treated everybody equally regardless of their rank.

As for your blog post, it breaks the law on defamation in the Netherlands. Why the Netherlands? Because this site is registered there. You cannot post unsubstantiated shit about a company and expect to get away with it. I don't know what SCS are going to do about it if anything but they genuinely are entitled to sue you.

You have no idea what you are talking about, this doesn't even come close to defamation.
It's articulating facts and highlighting poor policy. Defamation equals coming up with fabrications or lies to put a person or company in a bad light, there are no fabrications or lies in anything I've said.

ScuL and face the facts that what you did is wrong and that you have behaved inappropriately.

The only ones I have seen behaving inappropriately were the SCS moderators who have:
* undertaken steps to strip me of my privileges (which I am entitled to; having been a legal contractor for SCS software)
* undertaken steps to silence the discussion by locking threads, removing posts, editing posts and other forms of censorship
* unlawfully banned my account without any valid reason

I think I have every right to be extremely upset by this malicious treatment.
I've made strong recommendations to SCS management to revise some of the moderator staff.
Please note that, as Cadde mentioned, it would be wrong to point the finger at all of the moderators, but there are certainly some very twisted individuals suffering from some kind of power trip or personal vendetta.

I hope that the above provides you a better insight and I have faith in Pavel and Michal that they can work out some form of solution that satisfies everybody.

[Bora]

Got my full support..!!